This is a post I made to a the Harley Sportster maillist. I'm putting it here for reference and possibly to help others who are about to make the same mistake I did in purchasing a Harley Davidson. This post does not constitute the full extent of the trouble I've had since being talked into buying a Harley Davidson back in 2000. 3 of the 5 dealers I've dealt with were incompetent. You can make that 4 of 5 if I determine that recent service resulted in my blown bottom end.
In any case, most folks will want to ignore this post. But if you are considering buying a Harley for the first time, please read on...intro to this post:
Summer 2000, I'm looking to get back in to motorcycling. Many of my friends at the time were Harley owners. They convinced me that Harleys were now reliable, quality motorcycles. One afternoon, with a strong desire to ride again, and an abundance of dot-com loot, I went into the dealer and placed an order for a new 2000 XL1200C. Of course, I would have to wait about 6 months for my new bike as Harley Davidson is a master at creating artificial gluts in supply, helping perpetuate the silly mystique that surrounds these cheap, union-made motorcycles.
There's no feeling like pulling off the dealer lot on or in a brand new vehicle. That utter joy of owning a new quality motor vehicle. However, my situation wasn't quite like this: I was riding away on a Harley Davidson.
I'm not really impressed with the Harley Davidson name alone. I assumed that there must be a reason that folks were so fanatical about these bikes. I presumed that my new bike would be all that I hoped for and then some. But as I rode away, I quickly noted that my bike didn't sound anything like a Harley. It also didn't feel anywhere near as powerful as most Harleys "appear" to be. Well, this is not entirely Harley Davidsons fault. All new Harleys require the paying of a "Harley tax". The Harley tax is the difference between the bike Harley designed and the laws that make a bike legal in any given state, particularly California. In order to get a Harley to run properly, you need to let the motor "breathe". This means replacing the exhaust, the air intake, and re-jetting the carbs so that the motor can recieve the proper fuel/air mixture. Fair enough. I don't spite Harley for that, and it's not very expensive to perform this operation. The bike was notably more responsive after I had this "stage I" upgrade performed. However, the bike was still dog slow. I simply didn't feel safe on the freeway with this bike. I could not pull myself out of a pack of crazed rush-hour drivers, let alone lose the maniac asian kid in the acura. So I looked for more from my bike. I wanted a bike with a teeny bit of balls. And this is when I had the doomed upgrade performed. And my post to the Sportster mailing list outlines that experience in its dreadful entirety.
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posted to [email protected] 09/10/2003
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I bought this thing new in 2000. After the stage II and completion of break in, I was quite disappointed in the lack of power this bike had. So I took it to a reputable Harley mechanic who replaced/installed the following:
- crane cams and associated items
- SE ignition module
- 44mm SE carb
- thunderslide
- buell cylinders
- buell heads
- buell pistons
- hooker 2 into 1 header/exhaust
- hi-flow air cleaner
- misc. related items
total bill = $6200 ($3600 in parts + labor + tax)
ok, so i get the bike back and break it in. definitely has a reasonable amount of power now. can pretty much outdrag any hog on the street and have a fun time doing so (though i don't generally ride the bike that hard). i set rev limiter to 7000 just to be safe, and a happy duck i am.
about a month or two after this rebuild, head1 blows a gasket. i take bike to a different mechanic, as i had moved, and i have gasket replaced with the same crap the original mechanic used (a james teflon thing <-- AVOID). about a week later head2 blows a gasket. new mechanic decides to replace both head gaskets with traditional paper gaskets. and bike runs great for about 1500 miles. not a drop of oil out of either head.
... a few fun months pass
last night on the freeway, the thing blew all to hell. i hit throttle to pass a car and kerklunk.. rattle.. bang bang... klunk.... grind grind
i quickly pull clutch and safely coast to the side of the freeway where the motor bleeds to death.
no metal in plugs, so i imagine pistons are intact, but something blew and put a 1/2 inch hole in the crankcase just behind the rear cylinder.
my guess is that the original mechanic should have redone the bottom end at least in part, to be able to handle the newer high rev, high power top end. i'm thinking a rod broke or something, maybe a piston skirt. gonna have it torn apart to see exactly what happened. but what to do after that, i'm not sure.
i'm fairly confident i'm done with all harley products for the rest of my life. i'm not impressed with their bikes or their parts. in addtion to the motor trouble i'm having, i'm also constantly replacing cheap harley parts that break over and over. kickstand, tach mount, belt guard, etc...
i know there are people out there who enjoy these bikes for whatever reason. i guess maybe if i were more into spending a lot of time wrenching rather than riding, i might like mine too. but i like to ride, not sit on the side of the freeway, so i'm looking to get outta this bike, losing as little $$ as possible.
i'm into the bike for about $20K with the original cost, the rebuild and various accessories.
as i see it my options are:
- sell as is for a few grand (if that)
- replace motor (probably reusing the original parts that i still have) and sell as a working sportster.
- part it out and sell all this high end stuff for a fair amount (which i can't imagine netting more than selling a running bike :)
- take the thing to the nearest canyon and roll it on in. not very cost effective, but then, you can't really put a price on the satisfaction i'd get from that.
i *truly* love this style of bike (sportster with hopped up motor), semi-sporty, semi-cruise, torquey v-twin. if harley made a reliable bikes and parts, i wouldn't be looking to get rid of this thing at all. but i'm convinced the cause is pointless and that i either have to go back to a standard powerless stock sportster or continue with these types of issues. not sure what i'm going to go with next. jap big twins are too sporty (suzuki t1?), fake jap harley's are too ugly and too fake :) indians are junk. there's the new viper, but that's unproven. maybe some of you have some ideas of a harley-like bike without the harley trouble.
most importantly, i'd like ideas on what to do with this thing. how to most painlessly get rid of it without losing the rest of my shirt. i had some fun rides on that bike. while the new motor worked, it was a lot of fun. super torque at low speeds (accidental wheelies ;), very nice pull at high speeds that you'd never see outta stock sporty. but i was expecting an apple to be an orange, and that's not gonna happen :)
i appreciate all input, flames, rants, suggestions, hate mail, sympathy cards and such...
Comments
Need to do your homework on
Need to do your homework on the percentage of Harley parts manufactured outside of the US. You are very ignorant to say Harley is 100% American. Harley's forks, shocks and carbs have been made in Japan for decades by Showa and Mikuni carbs. Pistons for the Evo engines made by Jahn from Germany. And there are other parts as well. Unless you cut a tree down in the US and whittle it with a Gerber knife, pretty much everything in some form or another has parts that are imported.
Well, i must say as i read these negative comments about HD i can see where they come from. But here is what i have learned....3 years ago i inhearated a 81 flh shovelhead from my father wich he had owned almost since it was new. 5 years before i got it,it was stolen by some dude and then recovered about 4 months later. then it sat in my fathers garage for 4 years with the tanks fenders off. the deal was if i wanted the bike i had to come put it together and get it running. This would be my first bike other than dirt bikes of my youth.
After 2 sundays of wrenching on this old dusty cobwebby hog came the moment of truth. Time to start her up! would it run after 4 years of just rotting away? Yep, sure enough a couple of cranks of the starter and up she went! I must say i was suprised. So i rode the bike around for awhile and i did experience some problems... it turns out the jackass who stole the damn bike did some work on the cluch and didnt install the 10 cent lock washer on the cluch hub, so the cluch basket fell out while i was on the free way. No biggie really, i fixed it the next day. Besides a few minor problems like..bad conections, a few bolts rattling off that was pretty much it. At this point the bike had about 70,000 miles on her and i had only had her for about a year,so only 5,000 of those miles were mine. At this point i was comfortable riding around town sticking close to home just incase of another breakdown. Then i got an invitation to go to sturgis with some buddies who all had brand new Harleys full dressers, you know the kind ya see everywhere. I was hesitant but i convinced my father to fallow me with the truck just incase. Talk about hard riding, sturgis is about 2k miles from where i live and these dudes i rod with were pretty hard core riders were talking 500 mile days..one day we did 650 miles in the blazing utah heat! And ill tell ya what..that old Harley of mine ran like a true iron horse that she is. I swear i gave her all i had!, 80 miles an hour the whole way! just screaming that engine. I thought for sure something was gonna blow. 200 hundred miles from home my charging system went out. I said screw it. i came all this way i aint puttin her in the back of the truck. We push started it and screamed it home the last 200. I must say..after that trip i have complete confidence in that ol girl! I rod her around for another year after fixing the charging problem wich was another cheap fix and never had a problem. Finally about a couple of months ago she started smoking a little from the back cylinder. so i decided i would rebuild her. even though im sure she could have made another trip to sturgis. Plus the bike was stock and i wanted more power. I just finished the rebuild about 3 weeks ago she's all tricked out now i had the heads polished ported with dual plugs with black diamond valves,wiesco 9:5to1 forged pistons,crane ignition, andrews cam,revtech cylinders, s&s carb, samson drag pipes. I did all the work myself and i am a first timer i must say those hogs are very easy to work on. i just reached the 1500 mile mark yesterday as i was riding over the golden gate bridge! Sturgis here we come!
ahh, it's back to all this again. what bike is good for what style of riding? I'm a motorcycle mechanic by trade, I own a buell and work in a Honda and Yamaha dealership. Over the 16 years I've ridden bikes on the street, I have ridden just about every make and model there is. I've owned Honda's, Yamaha's, Suzuki's, Kawasaki's, a Harley and now a Buell. I put over 10,000 miles on each bike, some over 30,000 and I've come to this conclusion...if they are properly maintained they all work just fine. Proper maintenance means more than oil changes, even on jap bikes parts work loose, it happens. As a bike owner you have to know these things no matter what brand you ride. I ride 80 miles a day, 40 to and 40 from work...on a Buell, which is powered by a HD motor. I've put 30,000 miles on the bike in about two years with no real problems and I assure you they were not kind miles. A good number of them were only on the rear tire. I've ridden this bike harder than any other bike I've owned and it just keeps asking to be whipped harder. I've had jap bikes blow up much sooner than this and some that lasted longer than this probably will, but none of the problems I have ever encountered could be attributed to the manufacturer. All break downs, Harley or jap were due to me and me alone. Some of the other fella's were right, don't blame the machine, look to human error. Hell, even the best mechanic can make a mistake, it happens. And as far as parts go, you can get crappy aftermarket parts that break on jap bikes too. Buy quality parts, have them installed by quality technicians and the chances are pretty good that you won't find them falling off in your drive way. Every bike by every manufacturer has it's limits, a cruiser isn't built for speed, and a sport bike isn't built for comfort. It's up to you to decide what style of riding you want and buy the appropriate machine for that task. It just so happens that my Buell fits my wants and desires to perfection and performs better than I ever could have hoped, I'm not saying it's better than a Honda, just that it's best for me. So your bad luck with your sporty is YOUR bad luck, I know people with Yamaha's that have had the same thing happen. Don't blame the brand. Blame the mechanic...if applicable, or just blame yourself for buying something without test riding it first. Honda, Yamaha, Harley, Chevy, Ford, Chrysler they all do some things great and lack in other area's, NOT ONE SINGLE MAJOR BRAND in any form of vehicle manufacturing is really better than any other, they all work well as intended and they all break if abused. Find a good mechanic, buy quality parts and maintain when needed or even your Yamaha is gonna leave you stranded.
Scott,
you are right. i should have read up on the sportster before i bought it. i should have ridden one first. i would have known it's not the type of bike that gets you out of situations on the freeway. it's the type of bike you cruise on at under 80 and don't expect a lot of acceleration out of. fair enough.
if someone understands the limitations of the sportster, or any harley, and still wants to spend $12-25K on the bike, that's his choice. but why someone would spend twice the money for half the bike is still pretty much beyond me. the harley sound cannot be reproduced by jap bikes. the harley feel cannot be reproduced by jap bikes. and if that's worth thousands of dollars to you and you're willing to live with an under-engineered machine that is prone to failure. that again is your choice.
i will not know why my upgraded engine failed until i have it apart, true. but i do know that it consists of mostly harley parts and that it was put together by a very reputable mechanic, not some shod. and i do know too that many other pieces of this bike have proven extremely cheap. i got a collection of busted stock harley parts. their metal is shiny and cheap. they use cheap cotter pins and cheap bolts. the electrical systems tend to suck and break. the replacement parts are expensive and just as cheap.
it really is a low quality product. but it does have a definite intangible quality about it. i got that same "harley feeling" riding my bike. as cheap and weak as the bike was, i enjoyed it quite a lot. if it were still running, i wouldn't replace it. i kinda got attached to replacing parts that shouldn't have broken and cleaning oil off my driveway. but those are things that i should take to a good therapist. for a good solid ride that will get me there and back, any rider should look at what honda or yamaha or suzuki is doing. if you like riding more than you like calling a tow truck or replacing expensive parts, do not buy a harley.
Seems to me if Harleys were such huge piles o' crap, there wouldn't be the tens of thousands of people not only still riding them, but still buying them.
News travels fast, bad news even faster. There are thousands of Harley web sites, blogs, news groups, and forums... this is the first place I have stumbled across that has a rice burning fuctard like you, smack talking Harleys after providing evidence that most of the problems were self inflicted.
Yours is a story I've seen many times. My "Harley" experience is a low mileage used Buell Lightning I bought for very little ($2500 below book). I have ran the crap out of it for two years as a daily driver, and it hasn't ever skipped a beat. Worst things I've dealt with are dead batteries and a couple oil leaks. It still runs like the day I bought it despite some mods and has never used oil.
I have also never heard of kickstands breaking...so unless there was a habit of sitting atop the bike on the stand with feet off the ground, I don't see what could've broke it.
If there is anyone to blame it's yourself and the builder. Assembled correctly, these things hold together quite well. These motors don't like holding redline in the lower gears...and 7000 RPM is a needlessly high limit for a street motor...at least if you're there a lot of the time.
Anyway, it's too bad your baby blew...and I always have to shake my head at you guys who spend $7000 in mods on a $10000 bike to try to match the performance of a $5000 Buell.
Harley does make quite reliable bikes...however, once you get 'em at or exceeding their design limitations you're pretty much taking a gamble.
I don't believe in a "Harley Tax", either...that's something that people have had to deal with on all carbureted bikes since the late 70's. If you can call a Harley a low quality product you really haven't been looking around.
Anyway, best of luck...and if you drop it off a cliff please let me know where!
IT USED TO BE ABOUT MOTORCYCLES,,,,,,,,,NOW ITS A FUKIN FASHION SHOW!!.......JUST SAY NO TO H.D. PRODUCTS........
Thanks, this makes me laugh. If you would have spent any time researching Harley's, like going to the Harley Web site. www.harleydavidson.com (incase you didn't figure that out), there is a section right in there that says, "Find the bike for me" and go figure, it actually asks you questions based on your size, riding style, and the type of bike you are looking for (Cruising, touring...).
My guess is you didn't get the right bike. I ride an 03 sportster myself and it is great for what I do. 20 miles @70-80 MPH by myself back and forth to work. By the sounds of your comments you are looking to be screaming around town.. You probably should have looked into the Softail or Dyna class. These bike have a 1450CC engine for a reason. And sure there are ways to increase your Harley's sound and Horse Power, but if you are looking to be crusing at 100 Miles per hour and riding "wheelies" as you put it. Stay off the Harleys.
Think of it this way.. If you are gonna ride like and ASS, save yourself the couple of grand, and get yourself a crotch rocket to wreck instead of F'in up a Harley..
Ride Safe All!
Aaron,
I appreciate your point of view as a mechanic. I am not one, and I don't go any further than the outside of the motor with any of my chinese wrenches.
Hell, I'll give you one: the reason my bike blew up is that I set the rev limiter too high. With the Buell top end, I was told it could rev safely to about 6200. I (inadvertantly) set the rev limiter to 7500. And while there's no real useful power on a Buell/Sporty above about 5500, I did test out the rev limiter on a couple occassions. And so the ultimate blowing out of the bike was my fault, not that of any mechanic or even the parts involved.
I may even rebuild the bike for a blvd. cruiser. I don't *hate* it. And I don't deny that Harleys can be reliable bikes. But they are not quality bikes. There is a recall on the Warrior, correct. This is about a 3 year old bike. So they naturally have some things to work out. Most model Harleys have been around for quite a few years. The Sportster debuted in the mid 60s I believe. And the Evo motor has a long history as a stable motor. But the bike overall is not a quality modern motorcycle. The brakes are crap; the suspension is crap; a lot of the metal is crap; many of the fasteners they use are cheap crap; the electrical systems are crap.
A new 1200 Sporty is going to run you about $11 large I believe. Yet you don't find the quality of components and engineering that you'd find on the jap equivalent at half the price.
The classic styling of the Sporty could also be achieved in a bike that had none of the deficiencies I listed above.
And your Buell is not really a Harley. It's a Harley bottom end with a real top end. And I'd probably consider getting one some day.
But don't go off and claim that Harleys offer any value or quality.
And congrats on your Ford that still runs. Just as any manufacturer can produce an occassional lemon, Ford motors can likely produce the occassional gem.
Sorry about the bad luck you've had. But, maybe you should find out What caused the engine to blow before dogging out Harley's "Cheap Parts"? Maybe the mechanic who put it together made some error? I know lots of people who've modified Sporties and Buells without having them blow up. There are probably more Harleys that have racked up over 100,000 miles than any other brand, and lots of them are Sporties. Also, did you ever ride any of your buddie's bikes? Or look at a road test of a Sportster? One glance would have told you the bikes are not exactluy roadburners by todays standards. It's not Harley's fault you bought the wrong bike, or that you might have hired the wrong mechanic.