This is a post I made to a the Harley Sportster maillist. I'm putting it here for reference and possibly to help others who are about to make the same mistake I did in purchasing a Harley Davidson. This post does not constitute the full extent of the trouble I've had since being talked into buying a Harley Davidson back in 2000. 3 of the 5 dealers I've dealt with were incompetent. You can make that 4 of 5 if I determine that recent service resulted in my blown bottom end.
In any case, most folks will want to ignore this post. But if you are considering buying a Harley for the first time, please read on...intro to this post:
Summer 2000, I'm looking to get back in to motorcycling. Many of my friends at the time were Harley owners. They convinced me that Harleys were now reliable, quality motorcycles. One afternoon, with a strong desire to ride again, and an abundance of dot-com loot, I went into the dealer and placed an order for a new 2000 XL1200C. Of course, I would have to wait about 6 months for my new bike as Harley Davidson is a master at creating artificial gluts in supply, helping perpetuate the silly mystique that surrounds these cheap, union-made motorcycles.
There's no feeling like pulling off the dealer lot on or in a brand new vehicle. That utter joy of owning a new quality motor vehicle. However, my situation wasn't quite like this: I was riding away on a Harley Davidson.
I'm not really impressed with the Harley Davidson name alone. I assumed that there must be a reason that folks were so fanatical about these bikes. I presumed that my new bike would be all that I hoped for and then some. But as I rode away, I quickly noted that my bike didn't sound anything like a Harley. It also didn't feel anywhere near as powerful as most Harleys "appear" to be. Well, this is not entirely Harley Davidsons fault. All new Harleys require the paying of a "Harley tax". The Harley tax is the difference between the bike Harley designed and the laws that make a bike legal in any given state, particularly California. In order to get a Harley to run properly, you need to let the motor "breathe". This means replacing the exhaust, the air intake, and re-jetting the carbs so that the motor can recieve the proper fuel/air mixture. Fair enough. I don't spite Harley for that, and it's not very expensive to perform this operation. The bike was notably more responsive after I had this "stage I" upgrade performed. However, the bike was still dog slow. I simply didn't feel safe on the freeway with this bike. I could not pull myself out of a pack of crazed rush-hour drivers, let alone lose the maniac asian kid in the acura. So I looked for more from my bike. I wanted a bike with a teeny bit of balls. And this is when I had the doomed upgrade performed. And my post to the Sportster mailing list outlines that experience in its dreadful entirety.
-----------------------------------------------
posted to [email protected] 09/10/2003
-----------------------------------------------
I bought this thing new in 2000. After the stage II and completion of break in, I was quite disappointed in the lack of power this bike had. So I took it to a reputable Harley mechanic who replaced/installed the following:
- crane cams and associated items
- SE ignition module
- 44mm SE carb
- thunderslide
- buell cylinders
- buell heads
- buell pistons
- hooker 2 into 1 header/exhaust
- hi-flow air cleaner
- misc. related items
total bill = $6200 ($3600 in parts + labor + tax)
ok, so i get the bike back and break it in. definitely has a reasonable amount of power now. can pretty much outdrag any hog on the street and have a fun time doing so (though i don't generally ride the bike that hard). i set rev limiter to 7000 just to be safe, and a happy duck i am.
about a month or two after this rebuild, head1 blows a gasket. i take bike to a different mechanic, as i had moved, and i have gasket replaced with the same crap the original mechanic used (a james teflon thing <-- AVOID). about a week later head2 blows a gasket. new mechanic decides to replace both head gaskets with traditional paper gaskets. and bike runs great for about 1500 miles. not a drop of oil out of either head.
... a few fun months pass
last night on the freeway, the thing blew all to hell. i hit throttle to pass a car and kerklunk.. rattle.. bang bang... klunk.... grind grind
i quickly pull clutch and safely coast to the side of the freeway where the motor bleeds to death.
no metal in plugs, so i imagine pistons are intact, but something blew and put a 1/2 inch hole in the crankcase just behind the rear cylinder.
my guess is that the original mechanic should have redone the bottom end at least in part, to be able to handle the newer high rev, high power top end. i'm thinking a rod broke or something, maybe a piston skirt. gonna have it torn apart to see exactly what happened. but what to do after that, i'm not sure.
i'm fairly confident i'm done with all harley products for the rest of my life. i'm not impressed with their bikes or their parts. in addtion to the motor trouble i'm having, i'm also constantly replacing cheap harley parts that break over and over. kickstand, tach mount, belt guard, etc...
i know there are people out there who enjoy these bikes for whatever reason. i guess maybe if i were more into spending a lot of time wrenching rather than riding, i might like mine too. but i like to ride, not sit on the side of the freeway, so i'm looking to get outta this bike, losing as little $$ as possible.
i'm into the bike for about $20K with the original cost, the rebuild and various accessories.
as i see it my options are:
- sell as is for a few grand (if that)
- replace motor (probably reusing the original parts that i still have) and sell as a working sportster.
- part it out and sell all this high end stuff for a fair amount (which i can't imagine netting more than selling a running bike :)
- take the thing to the nearest canyon and roll it on in. not very cost effective, but then, you can't really put a price on the satisfaction i'd get from that.
i *truly* love this style of bike (sportster with hopped up motor), semi-sporty, semi-cruise, torquey v-twin. if harley made a reliable bikes and parts, i wouldn't be looking to get rid of this thing at all. but i'm convinced the cause is pointless and that i either have to go back to a standard powerless stock sportster or continue with these types of issues. not sure what i'm going to go with next. jap big twins are too sporty (suzuki t1?), fake jap harley's are too ugly and too fake :) indians are junk. there's the new viper, but that's unproven. maybe some of you have some ideas of a harley-like bike without the harley trouble.
most importantly, i'd like ideas on what to do with this thing. how to most painlessly get rid of it without losing the rest of my shirt. i had some fun rides on that bike. while the new motor worked, it was a lot of fun. super torque at low speeds (accidental wheelies ;), very nice pull at high speeds that you'd never see outta stock sporty. but i was expecting an apple to be an orange, and that's not gonna happen :)
i appreciate all input, flames, rants, suggestions, hate mail, sympathy cards and such...
Comments
Harley Experience
Wow, it is obvious we live in America, so many opinions from so many people. I own a 1993 Harley FLHS, I rode over 40,000 miles this year. The only trouble I had in all those miles was the voltage regulator wire coming off, it drained the battery and killed, Johnny law gave me a jumpstart and off I went. I would agree that some of the parts on Harley's could have a better design but that is true with almost anything you buy. I own a manufacturing business and have dealt with Harley as well as Polaris and Yamaha in the past, the fact is; Harley is more stringent on quality than the others, of course I have been a supplier and have no idea what the "internal" quality requirements of Harley are. Bottom line for me is.....I try to buy American (good or bad) so we all can keep the freedom of opinion that I have seen posted here. If you don't like Harley's thats fine, don't buy one. When you do buy a foreign bike and support thier economy that is fine also...actually it wouldn't hurt my feelings either if you moved there, this is the USA you have the freedom to do so.
Had metrics, now trying Harley... we'll see!
So, I've owned (at one time or another) an Indian, various Honda and Yamaha dirt bikes, a BSA Rocket, Honda CB750F, Suzuki GS550, Kawasaki KZ1300, Kawasaki Voyager XII, two GL1500s, and right at the moment a Yamaha Royal Star Venture, Kawasaki Vulcan Nomad, Kawasaki KLR 650 dual sport, and a Kawasaki 250 Ninja (the kids' training bike, but it's a kick in the pants to ride). My local bike dealer, who I've been doing business with for almost 20 years, laughs and says I change bikes like some folks change socks. Recently, I went for a ride with some friends and rode an Ultra Classic. It being time for a new touring bike, I looked at *all* of the offerings.
In the end, it came down between the GL1800 and the Electra Glide. OK, easy choice, you say... the Honda starship or the old Harley iron? Well, surprise, surprise... after riding the 06 Ultra, I ordered a Peace Officers edition about two months ago; I should see it in a couple of more weeks. It doesn't hurt my knees like the Wing does (just the wrong seating position, plus that motor in front of your feet - nowhere to move them when my knees get sore). It has the same perceived power as the Venture (it's about 10 HP less, but almost 100 lbs lighter, too), with a lower center of gravity. It also doesn't have the weak clutch diaphragm return spring that caused me to put a $500 Barnett clutch pack in the Venture so it wouldn't slip under load (which gave it a truly Harleyesque clutch effort, by the way - the 06 Electra Glide has a much better clutch feel). It probably won't have the broken fuel pump that my first Wing came with, that didn't show up until I picked it up, or the bad lean angle sensor that the second one had, that killed the bike on the freeway. It might not even have the many problems that my Voyager had, from burned out fuel pump that stranded me in a bad part of Oakland, or all the trim parts that fell off, the speedo that never worked right, the rear end bearing that broke, rupturing the seal and dumping 90 weight on my back tire... never mind the BSA or the Indian's quirks or the many problems on those dirt bikes that I fixed as a routine. By the way, I enjoyed riding each of those bikes, never mind the problems. I was too busy riding to whine about it. Oh, yeah, and the Polaris touring bike on the trip I mentioned above that lost half of the electrical system, and the two dealers that couldn't fix it... I'm sure the Electra Glide will have its own quirks and problems. I'll fix them and enjoy riding it, too.
So, if you've read down through all that crap, what's the bottom line? ALL bikes have their problems. NO exceptions. I bought the bike that suited my riding style and ergonomic needs - hopefully, I'll be happy with it. All this BS about "Jap bikes" and "Harley bashing" is just that - you can fertilize your garden with it. We all have the right to buy what we can afford, ride where we want, and so forth. Rights that were bought and paid for in blood, by me among others (yes, I'm a vet, I've earned the right, and that's the end of the political soapboxing). "American made" is a myth. "American assembled" is closer to reality. Even mighty H-D puts parts made in Japan in their bikes. Why? Because they work and cost less. That works for me.
Oh, yeah... I'm keeping the Nomad and the KLR... only the Venture is going. I'd keep it, but there's not enough room in the garage, damn it!
Valkyrie vs HD Road King
My first bike was a 1996 KAWASAKI 1500 Vulcan Classic. Liquid cooled piece of shit. My second bike was a 1997 Honda Valkyrie Tourer. I kept for 2 years and 20,000 miles on it. I never had a major problem with the bike, just a couple of minor problems such as leaking coolant, electrical short, started switch, dead battery and cold starts. The reason I bought the Valk is because I was impressed with my Dad'd Valk. Smooth, quiet and powerfull. I am glad I had a Valk because it made it easy for me to complete the Iron Butt Association ride. The Valk was simply too big for a cruiser. It was too heavy and too tall and it handled heavy at slow speeds.
My new HD Road King handles like a dream, I feel safer. It is not as powerfull or as fast but I keep up with my Dad on his Valkyrie. The Harley is great for real life riding. If you want to over 100 mph don't get a Harley unless you want a V-ROD. So far I am very happy with my Roda King, it sounds great, it runs fast and looks good and does it cheaper than the Valk(33 mpg instead of 45 mpg)
What Amarican bike?
quick question why is it that every harley owner has to modify there bikes with stage whatever kits and sreamin eagle whatever partes. If i pay 15K-20K i want a bike that is powerful off the show room floor. I dont want to have to mod it to death, thats why people choose forign over dimestic. they have the power and performance and technology at a reasonable price. Harleys are simply nostalgic conversation peaces for all the flag slathered mongotards who want to feel patriotic so they spend money on anticquated trash, that my or my not come with horrible enginering problems. That sporty was a turd plan and simple i dont buy names i by technology not over hyped under powered flag slathered sounds like a flatulant yak POS. I ride a bike that has 130hp in a compect frame with a wet weight of 450lb. If you want to spend 20K for a falls sense of patriotism be my guest, but when you get your ass handed to you by a mini-van at least you'll be happy it was an Amarican made mini van.
If you wanted speed you
If you wanted speed you shouldn't have wasted all that money. The price of that sportster could have gotten you a R1,ZX10R, etc. You also would have had plenty of money for mods. Also we need to stop being so for giving when it comes to hardleys just because they are Amarican made,whatever that means anymore with all there imported parts. They are under powered,insanly loud, and antiquated not to menchin there price. Harley is not a real bike in any sense of the word, unless you define "real". Harleys are "real" slow, "real" heavy, "real" expensive. So yes Harleys are real bikes in that sence, but most harley owners choose form over function.
Wake up people its time to stop blaming this poor guy who got suckered in to buying this flag slathered turd. Its not his fault the bike was enginered poorly. And as for supporting other econimies if thats what it takes to get a quality product than you could say harley is forcing us to, by manufacturing POS 60yr old tech at modern tech prices. Haven't you ever heird of Honda of Amarica they supply jobs to Amaricans or is that just another jap lie. Harleys are meirly assembled in the U.S there parts come from you guest it Japan, China, and Tiwain. So with your Harley owners logic The Motor Company is supporting all of the above. In closing by a bike not an image dont stand with the cattle as they grase in the pasture of mediocrity we as Americans need to demand more from the "Motor Company" only than will they start trying to produce quality produces.
Did I get lucky...?, reliable sportster experience....mostly : )
I was surfing the I-net today, sportster stuff and came across you guys here. I own a 2003 XLC 1200 I bought new in Colorado that year. Bob Hope's last year, he did 100yrs., not debateable, and the arguable 100th for HD.
The stock bike, aside from its vintage style appeal, was a let down once I got it broke in and could ask it to do what it could do... I was not impressed. In comparrison to the 2001 GSXR 750 I still owned at the time and the numerouse Honda CB's and CBR's I've owned over the years since I was a teen ( pushing mid 40's now...) the Sportster was a wimp, but still I was drawn to that machine and felt there was more to it. Deservedly, part of the reason I went into HD was to deliberately 'slow down' and enjoy the ride.... but hey, not this slow!!!
So I learn all about the 'Harley Tax' and commence my effort to make my Sportster actualy sporty. It took some research and effort to figure an econimical and effective result as there is no shortage of opinions and aftermarket parts out there.
I settled at a stage one with the following: SE air intake, 180 main jet, Reinhart taper flow dual exhaust with baffles still in, SE dual fire ignition mod with matching coil, Magnacor plug wires, SE split fire plugs, pingle fuel valve, and slapped an HD oil cooler on for good luck. It took me a little time to get to this combination of components but it seems to genuinely work. I live and ride the bike mostly at an altitude of 5000 ft in Colorado.
I live at an altitude of 5000 ft in Colorado as a side note. The bike is a completely different and improved riding machine at this stage. There is emeadiate and predictable throttle responce, barely any 'sportster farting' after a little warm up, a very strong roll on from 70 to the ton ten without hesitation, just cranking V-twin pleasure vibes and roar, big roar.... and you can coax the speedo to its burried point of 120 from then on and still keep the tach moving a little from that point too.
Now I know the difference in this compared to a sport bike that I have displayed numbers bigger than 175 on its digital speedo... But doing triple digits without effort on modern sport bikes is fun but real impractical once the local law keepers learn your where abouts.... At least you can feal like you are really blazing on the sportster ( no fairngs..etc.. and do this helmetless and fido will really envy you ..) but not going so fast that when you get pulled over the Hwy patrol has a gun or night stick waiting for you.
I have just over 20,000 miles on this bike now...NO oil leaks, run it hard ( mobile 1 V-twin oil = temps of 200 to 240 when doing better than 90mph...) The dreaded sportster vibe? Come on guys are you all wimps or what!! It has a very obnoxious vibe in a very narrow rpm band right around 3200 rpm on my machine but above and beyond that is really no big deal unless you have a pace maker installed in you ,then maybe that could be an issue... You can drive the engine right around that narly vibe, use a different gear etc...
This is 'vintage' style motorcycling and I don't think it is for every one. Nuf said, but this bike only really let me down once... driving it home one summer eve late after a ZZ- Top concert localy, I'm 'enjoying the ride' and the bastard just dies on the freeway a long way from home. The bike didn't even have 5K on it then and not upgraded yet as mentioned above.. turns out that the primary leads going to the coil had literally shaken themselves apart but the external insulation was still intact!! I do my own work and repairs, HD has never touched this bike outside of a warranty oil change necessity and replacing a bad chrome piece on the shifter when it was still practically new. Now I have likely jynxed myself for writing this but I made the all important Sturgis run without incedent or failure last year to include an all day, ride hard, 700 mile return trip to home... and hope to repeat that voyage again this year...
Enjoy your ride, no matter the machine..
Randy
Relax already...
This is MOTORCYCLING, not sending a man to the moon... get over your ' high-tech' gee I am so sophisticated self, because I have a modern motorcycle that I simply baught off a show room floor or otherwise, which is already technically obsoleted the day you buy it, using your own pencil neck geek mentality standard.
It's a friggin bike not a doctrinal thesis and if you understood the beauty of making something work better than it did stock, then you wouldn't be such an uptight 'geni-ass' wadd throwing patriotic insults just because somebody bought a harley.!! Get over it. On the same token allot of that rhetoric is fueled by the zealot harley family fanatics out there and so if they dish it out they should be able to take it too. I fall into the category of having enjoyed allot of different bikes over the years and now having a genuine blast on my sportster, after tweeking it..., because I can... and I can't afford regular track days, multiple speeding tickets and or licensure suspension, to push a sport bike like it was intended to be rode... not just a poser machine with 130hp to the rear wheel...
So I have been resisting the temptation to sound appologetic for harley or even to defend myself for owning one, but hey I ride like you do ( probably better... : ) so I just can't be quiet any more!!!!!!
Enjoy the ride. and RELAX already.. its a motorcycle not my DNA strand... ;)
P.S. is that a loud pipe I hear off in the distance or just the murmur of cyber space grumblings revving up for a reply... Ha,ha,ha,ha,,, just go riding children.
Well, it's been several
Well, it's been several years. What's the followup on this? Did you like the new bike and did it work out? Still riding?
I have a 2001 Honda Magna 750 and have enjoyed it to it's fullest. Yes, I'd like a bigger bike but that'll come in time. The VTX1800 is what I have my sights on.
I would love a Harley but like your post and additional comments suggest, there is a very divided camp on this: either you love them, or you hate them; you either get a good one or you don't; they either live up to your expectations or they don't. I guess any of that could be had with any bike. I'm not turned off by the reliablity of a Harley, it's the price tag. For much less money I can get another type of bike with more on it. It's economics. I know quite a few Harley owners and they all do much more maintainence on their bikes than I do on mine. I clean it, change the oil at the beginning of the summer and ride. That's it. At the same time, once you start changing the fundamentals of what the bike was designed to do, you invite problems. That's what you did and that's what happened to you. But no matter the outcome, I hope you are truly happy with the bike you have now. I hope your still riding.
To anyone reading this at this date. If you're considering buying a new bike, try renting one if you can. Ride it long enough to be able to tell if you like the style and power. But just like anything you buy, you take a chance of being disappointed.
Get trained in riding and be safe!
well..sigh..... if you
well..sigh..... if you worked on it yourself as everyone should, weather its honda harley whatever, you would realize that even putting that much $$$ into a mechanics hands may cause problems i just purchased a 2001 1200 sporty from the dealer and put 3000 miles onit ina month with no problems and it gets out of its own way. plenty fast for my taste
i paid $5000
be happy to ride
Hi Tom here, thanks for
Hi Tom here, thanks for sharing your experience. It proves to be really a great post for me. As i am going to have a bike now. As soon as i confirmed my job in hotel , i will then purchased the bike.